Texas Constitutional Convention Updates

Summary of 6 July 1997 Meeting (Rough Notes)

9:12am, July 6, session brought to order.

Chair says minutes should be read every day, for each session, chair would like to dispense with that item, minutes must be approved at the next regularly scheduled session of the convention.

Treasurer's report - received from Don Henson $153.50, and $60 in donations, $3.50 from cup downstairs, total of $217.00, less rent for two days. Lowe - up to the delegates to chip in and pay for the building rent, are individually responsible and should

contribute. Angwin - will also need a place to convene next time.

Chair says about $5 per delegate would be appropriate. Hamilton - would like to donate $100 for rent for two days. Wanjura - purposes of treasurer's office is to handle that issue. Cloyce - if we have a continuing session, will that change our policy toward absentees? Burnett - likes the idea of sequential meeting days as one session. Wanjura - is in order to adjourn a session, while not adjourning a convention.

Wanjura - one of our visitors, Jimm Johnson, has a lot of good ideas, and should be allowed to speak, not as a delegate, but for purposes of valuable input, and should be done by consensus. Burnett - should be seated at the table, so we can hear him. Sudbury - disagrees, should only be open to delegates. Cloyce - thinks he should be heard. Hamilton - this is not sanctioned by any govt. Holt - can delegate yield the floor to non-delegate? Wanjura - yes.

Johnson - 28, minneapolis, MN, not married, learned about the RT effort and has studied issues of freedom.

Erickson - since we can allow expert witnesses to share the floor through a delegate's yielding the floor, dont need to do anything special, could open the door to problems later with others.

Angwin - supportive of Johnson's being allowed to speak, but not to vote, knows Johnson who has been involved via internet for some time. If problems arises in future, we can handle it then.

Kesterson - no danger to having him speak, he could only slow us down, and that shouldn't be a problem.

Falzitto - his desire to assist the republic of Texas removes all objections for me.

Cloyce W. - in 1836 we had citizens from other countries who came and died for Texas freedom.

Duncan - consensus is that we accept him.

Chair agrees. WAnjura - for matter of record, should take vote of consensus.

Gamble - agrees, if he came that far, he must have something good to say.

Benj - we need all the help we can get.

Vote passed, one no vote.

Johnson seated at the table as non-voting delegate.

Lowe, Kesterson, Lowe, Wanjura, Duncan, Martinez, Angwin, Erickson, Mr/Mrs Childress, Holts, Burnett, Gamble, Sudbury, Benjiman, Falzitto, Hamilton, C. Williams, Doreck, Henson.

Lowe - congratulates the delegates on having come this far, learned a lot about how to conduct business, but some issues still being ignored, courtesy still necessary to conduct business in orderly fashion, speak loudly and clearly, no private conversations while delegate is speaking.

Wanjura - had agreed Friday to wait til Sunday to close seating members of this body. Would it be proper on the record to seat those who are affidavited but not present?

Chair - not appropriate, due to motion to have sec. contact them and ask their intentions.

Hamilton - motion to issue a public rebuttal concerning the constitutional convention's affiliation with the REpublic of Texas printed by the news media (ref San Angelo Times, Sunday edition, 7/5/97)

Wanjura - not appropriate. Erickson - job of the PR committee. Childress - proper function of the PR people. Hamilton - public view has been negative, must not allow negative press to influence thinking of those not present, address it up front, so no ties to Fort Davis. Sudbury - we need to concentrate on convention and move forward. Wanjura - Hamilton has many times said this to some of us, but we have some experience with the media, understand his concerns, but we have more important things to deal

with.

Duncan - proposal is not petty bickering, but important that in official docs, PRels, etc., that we hold to the high ground, clearly identify ourselves. Angwin - at lunch yesterday, worked at leaving good impression as citizen of reublic of Texas, not argumentative, extra polite and nice, up to us to work at leaving that impression without argument, make friends out of people to gain support. Falzitto - dont sell ourselves short, lots of people in San Angelo who are in favor of position of the republic of Texas, may not attend meetings, but are supportive, had started letter-writing campaign to support republic. Hamilton - supports the republic, but this body must be separate of any govt or political movement, not political, must be neutral. Childress - no second done, is this a motion? Wanjura - we have people to do this, why discuss it?

Hamilton - wants it to be a motion

Childress - second. Friendly amendment to have it done by PR committee people. Hamilton - accepted.

Angwin - call the aquestion. Friendly amendment by Duncan to change rebuttal to public statement. Hamilton - accepted.

Sec - reads the motion as amended. Vote, motion defeated, two yes votes.

Chair - still dealing with motions from yesterday.

Sudbury moved that 23 seats for delegates be left open on a first come, first serve basis. After the 23rd seat is filled, delegates to the Texas constitutional convention be forever closed. Motion failed for lack of second.

Hamilton - resigns, leaves convention hall. Chair - does the body accept his resignation? Vote passed, two no votes.

Wanjura - POO, when delegate resigns, no reason is required, and body must accept the resignation before seat can be filled according to the rules we adopted. Angwin - we have obligation to be concerned about the feelings of others, and should find out why he left. Lowe - having my motion defeated is not sufficient reason for me to leave the convention, feelings are not on my sleeve, will not give up at the first sign of disagreement. Sudbury - delegates need to grow up, this is not for children who get their feelings hurt. Childress - if feelings hurt, must get over it and go on. Falzitto - must keep a vision of what this is all about, here to write a constitution, rejection over denied motions is inappropriate, must not become part of NWO, lets get on with business at hand.

Chair suggests 10 min. break. Duncan - purpose of C4 committee was to bring this convention about, but until we settle the issue of whether this const. is for a state or for a nation, we cannot continue. This is not a republic of Texas convention, nor was it a RT committee, this const. is for a majority of the people of Texas, to create the kind of govt for future Texans. Suggest that after recess, we decide what form of const. we are writing. Wanjura - new motion, should be new business.

Recess for 15 min. at 10:12am.

Reconvened at 10:30am. Benjiman - says not a republic or a state, until we have the full support of the people we are still in transition (written).

Chair - calls for report by committee on structure of const. Angwin - provided sec. with proposal, reads the committee's proposed structure, with explanations, will allow each delegate to comment. (Angwin has the gavel).

Barnett - no comments, is interesting start. Sanders - thinks Rangers should be under Executive function, since Rangers should have resp. for watching govt. rather than people. Doreck - good start. Cloyce - why do Rangers rank special treatment? Are to be peoples' watchdog over government. Falzitto - dislikes 13 articles in constitution, thinks Rangers should be under Executive. Benjiman - Rangers should be put under Article 6, People. Sudbury - Rangers should not be separate. Gamble - no comments. Burnett - what influence do delegates have on the order of this proposal? They can alter in any way they agree on. Item 10, strongly opposed to any national police force, only at county level, no need for an article for any part of govt, and no need for national law enforcement. Opposed to any amendment process, if need to amend should write it all over again in another const. Question on article People. Covers responsibilities. Then recommend that it should be under general provisions. Holt - would like Artilce 2 to disappear, don't want Rangers part of Executive, or article for Rangers at all, will reserve other comments, butthinks Article 8 should be elsewhere. Mrs. Holt - would like to hear it fleshed out more. Childress - no amendments, if we need to amend says its a defective doc, against national police force, would like to see article related to TExas Defense Force since it will defend our liberty, what it can and cannot do. Mrs. Childress - no comment. Erickson - too early to determine anything from the committees, my committee is still working, not able to concentrate on your committee, premature to decidethe issue, need more time to discuss. Rangers that we have today are not as originally created or intended, were to be used only when petitioned by local sheriff to assist him, under contract, during war were under the military, disbanded when not needed. Limitations and duties of military, have lots of personal research on the issue, will be glad to share, cannot give military more power than we want it to have, but should be equal or superior to any armed force on earth. Johnson - Art 6 should be adjacent to Art 1, and Art 12 is not necessary. Martinex - no national police force, Rangers should be for the people, incorporate Art 6 into Art 1. Duncan - questions about items under Art 6. About citizenship, referendum, impeachment process, responsibilites. Question about Art 3, should be incorporated into Articles on branches of govt. Wanjura - looks like too much on the surface, title implies nationhood, but body has not stated in the records that we are working on a national const., thinks we are acting prematurely, feels enumeration of rights is potentially dangerous, more words implies more loopholes, should be rights

and responsibilities for Art 1, people should be willing to accept being held accountable under common law, totally against ARt 2 since govt should not make laws, doesn't like word authorities in Art 3, has no authority or power except as given by the people, ... Angwin interrupts, only discussing the items, not the content. Wanjura - ok, Art 6 doesn't agree with as stated, doesn't like the word Revenue in Art 7, should include Rangers article in another, would suggest article dealing exclusively with

military, militias, amendment doesn't require separate article, are merely addenda, self-terminating transition.

Lowe - words that seemed important during discussion - less is better, more means more chance for curruption. Needs to be sifted, distilled, then re-read and understand, combine, sift, boil, distill again. Agrees no amendment process, thinks govt has no duty to present to the people proposed amendments, that is for the people to do, thinks that previous govts have confused the people in the past by negative amendments.

Kesterson - dont know yet what the form of govt is, keep our minds open, 3branch is not the only possibility, this discussion is premature. Angwin - can be altered in any manner this convention sees fit.

Invite comments from Hamilton - we have a republican form of govt, which must be a 3-branch.

Sara - questions whether this can be fleshed out in 2-3 pages and learned by heart by the average

citizen, if not, am opposed to any doc which defines the law that governs me which cannot be memorized or carried on my person,

Henson - since on the committee, think this is good, surprised that no discussion on title, was meant to be short explanation on the basis for the const., was intended to be suggested starting place only.

Angwin - not a formal discussion, will entertain comments from the delegates who wish to speak.

Falzitto - must have legislative body, must have executive to have laws carried out, must have judiciary to handle those who break the laws, must have revenue for govt to function, has rewritten the sequence of Articles, added Art to handle international relations and treaties, people should come first in const.

Gamble - has submitted proposal (written).

Sanders - in order to limit govt, probably can't write const. that can be memorized. Define penalties for the violation of this govt, and say that any amendments should be done by people in convention, and comment on Rangers, other ideas about re-arranging doc, but rights should remain first.

Cloyce - protect rights of people in each county to remain independent as militias, on local and individual basis. Burnett - request that this order and process be delayed until after we have decided on the form of govt, officially, as to whether we are writing a const for a nation or state. Need time to discuss the functions of govt before we adopt an outline for the doc.

Kesterson - dictionary defines republican form of govt as not specifically a 3-branch government, does not require other than that it be representative in form.

Angwin - suggest that other delegates who wish to speak will submit comments for the record to sec.

Chair now has gavel, suggest that the committtee remain intact, no further action necessary until future session, premature at this time.

Motion by Holt, second by Angwin, that Mr. Sam Hamilton be reinstated as a full delegate to this convention. Lowe - Mr. Hamilton wasn't in the room after the vote was taken, and there was discussion, think he should hear comments made, some of my ideas or

motions were on the losing end, but I as delegate am determined to remain until the job is done, in debate we may chastise others without being abusive or vulgar, I want to know what is in Hamilton's heart, will this happen again, when things get really tough and we are nose-to-nose, do you have the courage and heart to stick this out with the rest of us?

Hamilton - reaction was result of possibility of this convention being tied to political body or movement, wants to write a doc that will form govt for the people of Texas, if we allow ourselves to be colored early we will lose the support of the people,

supportive of the efforts of the Republic of Texas. Lowe - avoided the question, what will you do next time, if we do something you don't agree with? Hamilton - am fairly stable, have learned that some efforts are fruitless, will not survive without a plan, see this eroding. Lowe - I became involved politically 30 years ago, 2 yrs with RT, knew not popular, chose regardless of cost to do whatever it took for my nation, people will slander, but we learned to live with it, we take the upper road and succeed, dont fight each enemy. Childress - president of the Republic of Texas is sitting in our midst, these people are part of us, must be included and allowed to participate, we will always be painted by the media with that brush. Erickson - we must have a body politic to operate, and we have that because of what RT people have done to date to get us to this point, you did answer his question by avoiding it, many times have wanted to resign, but still hangin on by a thread in order to support this, it will get harder, if you had come back in and apologized for leaving and promised to continue working, but you only made excuses for your actions, and I am against reinstating you. Angwin - we are passionate people. POO - object to profanity in any manner (Lowe). Angwin - we are small group, need each other, correct errors as a group, fully support Hamilton's rejoining this body, must work together. Duncan - we do have in fact provisional govt seated as delegates, here as individuals, followed same

procedure, Bush could be here, no limit on who could be here as delegates, open to all Texans, Hamilton meets those requirements, dont know if he will ever walk out of here, no guarantees, has contributed to this convention and think he can continue to do so, supports his reinstatement. Falzitto - have no objection to his comments, object to bending the rules again to allow him to be reinstated, people should be responsible for their own actions, we accepted his resignation, will leave myself if we voted to write a state constitution, will allow him to stay in a non-voting capacity but he has resigned.

KEsterson - not bending the rules, would like to hear a direct answer to Lowe's question, advise that no matter what happens, if he is willing to stay and work no matter what, will support his returning.

Hamilton - think that this convention is only chance Texas citizens have, believe it will be a failure if connected with any political body, regardless of who is delegated, as long as we remain totally isolated from any other, will not walk out as long as

the body is moving, could not get his point across before, no cost too great for that, but this must be independent effort.

Wanjura - to clarify from parl. aspect, is special circumstance, he meets the criteria of a delegate, motion is to reinstate, is no provision for that by this body. Burnett - friendly amendment to change the wording from 'reinstate' to 'accept', accepted.

If done, seat he resigned from will remain open to be filled by this body. Barnett - believe in second chances, but we did that and he didn't answer, left it open-ended, so he had hsi second chance, cant support his application. Benjiman - call the question. Cloyce - this body may take on a decided national flavor, supportive of REpbulic of Texas ideals, will he leave then? Sanders - we agreed to come here as citizens of Texas while at this convention, should work on this constitution no matter what takes place, Hamilton refused to answer the question, tho he has contributed to this convention, but he did not answer until Angwin whispered in his ear. Call for the vote, must be 2/3 vote. POO - as stated does not required 2/3 vote, altho we are being deceitful, bypassing the issue. No further discussion allowed.

Vote 6 for, 14 opposed, motion defeated.

Angwin - request to attach written comments to the minutes. Wanjura - as parl. there is no provision for same. Childress - all discussion should be open, for all to hear, not secret, and written comments would be. Angwin - will make comments openly if allowed. Kesterson - this is the last day of this session, we need to hear further committee reports. Angwin - strong objection. Chair - no unread written comments will be added to the record.

Back to agenda. Chair asks two remaining commiottees to make their comments.

Burnett - chair Scales asked me to report on decl of rights comm, no report ready to present to the convention at this time, will have report ready for the next session. Sara - if appropriate, will send out the report to delegates when ready if chair will forward it to me.

Wanjura - report on comm. on limits and duties of govt. Read proposal into record (written). Committee has not completed its plan of action as written, inappropriate to ask for comments yet since delegates do not have the information before them.

Chair - records of this convetnion should be in the archives of Texas in Austin, asks secretary if she will handle that issue, contact the archivist and ask for permission to do so.

Kesterson - list of delegates is finished, printed copies, available.

Chair asks who will be available after lunch, approx. 18 people, so will have quorum. Erickson has offered place for next session in Corsicana. Burnett - motion that we meet in Abilene, on Friday 25th July, 9am., location to be determined by those delegates living in Abilene. Lowe - how many live within 100 miles of Abilene? Eight. SEconded by Duncan. Lowe - delegates from east Texas and from west Texas, always in for a long trip, most number of people should travel the least distance. Wanjura - is

too soon for some of the committees to have their reports prepared, groundwork is very important, need time to establish it, suggest making it approx. one month. Angwin - why can we not continue to convene here? Erickson - not enough time for our committee to bring report before the body, and my building will not charge for its use, trying to keep costs down for delegates who have limited funds. Gamble - name is misspelled on list. Sanders - will be in restaurant, enclosed, if anyone has a problem with Zentner's Daughter. Barnett - is there place for someone to sleep in Corsicana building? Sudbury - agree that we should meet in Corsicana, since it's in a different location. Angwin - discussion of distances. POO - time and place to reconvene not subject to vote. Burnett - removed his motion. Wanjura - by consent, can agree to meet in Abilene on July 25th, and let delegates know, and can change the time and place at any time as long as every delegates is informed.

Chair suggests that we think about the issue and make a determination after lunch, and then notify the delegates. After lunch, will discuss whether this const is for a nation or state.

Declared recess until 3:30 pm.

Late arrivals to the morning session - Barnett and Sanders. Arrival at aft session - Scales. Not at the aft session - Mr/Mrs Childress, Erickson. Hamilton - resigned.

Chair reconvened the session at 3:42pm. Next item on the agenda - whether this will be a state or national const. Motion bgy Barnett that this convention write a const establishing Texas as a free and independent nation. Seconded by Burnett.

Angwin - that we accept this motion by acclamation. POO - not appropriate.

Discussion - Duncan - reread the motion, Lowe - does this doc declare Texas to be a nation? No, this establishes Texas as nation, doesn't declare. Lowe - to convention at large, does the constitution establish the nation? Wanjura - could say 'further establish.' Scales - do we have to do this now? Dont feel that those foundational docs should be considered as part of this convention. Kesterson - when the convention was advertised as convention to form a state or just as convention to write const? Burnett - only to write const for Texas. Kesterson - it is then important that we say this now. Falzitto - RT already in existence, under a de facto const and want to get out of it, will not take part in any delegation that forms state const. Holt required to be a state that we will be subservient to the US, and we are not so stating. Doreck - const is for people, not for nation. Sanders - if we are going to write const for state, it will be overridden by US and we will get nowhere, must be clarified that this const is for nation and not state. Johnson - writing it under the authority of the people, not under the authority of the state? advertised doc were confusing. Sara - friendly amendment to change 'establishing TExas' to 'establishing the free and independent nation of Texas.' Angwin - repeats the question asked by Lowe. Kesterson - advertising didn't give us the authority to do this, power is inherent in the people, that's why we are here. Duncan - dont recall the exact wording, but gave delegates plenary powers about what to do once assembled, we are sole arbiters of what comes from this convention, no outside authority can dictate its efforts and results. Sudbury - this is a no-brainer, lets do it.

Duncan - call the question. Vote passed, one no vote.

'That this convention write a constitution establishing the free and independent nation of Texas.' 4pm, CDT

Scales - my intention with the committee's proclamation was to use the custom and traditions of previous constitutions, and before we had two votes, one to ratify the constitution, and one to ratify independence.

Chair - two existing committees will continue to work, do we need additional committees working between now and the next session? Lowe - would suggest a committee to work with the secretary on reviewing discrepancies and word usage, as well as presentation and punctuation, for the constitution as it is written.

Burnett - question, as we proceed, do you mean have 3-4 people review the draft? Would it be proper to

move that we establish a committee to review articles for the const prior to final adoption? Yes, so made. Seconded by Sudbury. Motion withdrawn, chair asks that secretary accept by consent volunteers to assist with review of the documents before final adoption. She accepted that responsibility.

Next item on the agenda - choose place for next session. Discussion. Sanders - would suggest that we pick Corsicana, can we do a straw poll rather than a motion on this. 12 for Corsicana, 4 for Abilene, 2 for El Paso. Secretary to contact Erickson to inform him. Lowe - Corsicana was established by Navarro, who was involved with the writing of the RT const of 1836. Angwin - should have an informal understanding that we should move the sessions around Texas. Discussion on sites for future sessions.

Burnett - would personally prefer to meet in the same place all the time, moving is disruptive. Barnett - need to set a date as well, sugest August 2. Burnett - continuity effort, too much space between now and then, two weeks would be better, and three days would be best. Sanders - think 3 weeks should be max amount of time between sessions. Kesterson - support for the 25th. Angwin - third day should be Monday, not Friday, can determine on Sunday whether we will have a quorum on Monday. Duncan - since

lunch none of us are speaking clearly and loudly enough for the rest of us.

Chair - do we want to start on Friday or Saturday? 7 for Friday, 9 for Saturday. Chair agrees.

Chair - asks for calendar, Saturday is July 26, will be our next meeting date in Corsicana.

Chair asks whether we should begin to debate type or form of govt. Wanjura asks for straw poll of whether we can agree that we are forming a republic form of govt, as defined in the dictionary we adopted. 14 for, 2 against. Sara - not binding on the group, and would like not to finish the debate until those who are not present can participate. Sanders - we must know what we are going to be before we can decide. Sudbury - we have a quorum and should move forward. Chair has determined up front that we will take no formal action until next session, but can discuss it all we want. Duncan - we are writing something for the future

and should not decide this issue until we have thought it through completely. Lowe - some decisions I dont like to make on a full or empty stomach, and this is one, shouldn't be too quick to make such a decision lightly, there may be other options open to us, should do what is best for the people, should place this on the agenda for July 26th, and debate other forms of govt. Wanjura - asked for poll for sake of expediency, should draft a const and let it take what form it may. Falzitto - heard talk about not wanting a legislature by some, think we should research the issue for the next session. Kesterson - agree with others, this is too comlex an issue to decide in one day, republic is just a representative form of govt, could take many forms, better off to determine up front, like cooks in the kitchen who are trying to make dinner without a menu.

Martinez - agrees with Wanjura. Wanjura - motion to adjourn the session until 9am, July 26th, in Corsicana.

Vote for 12, opposed 5. Session is adjourned.

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